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Does anyone have an idea what might be going on with my mount?
About a week ago I got a chance to try my CEM120 first time.
I aligned it and balanced both RA and DEC as well as I could, and got it polar-aligned quite well enough.
Everything started well, but then I tried to go to M106, which was much higher in the sky than the earlier targets, and
I think the DEC gear started "jumping over" in the middle of the slew. I pressed "0" in the controller to stop everything,
disengaged the DEC drive and checked that there is no obstacles anywhere and the DEC axis could move freely.
I then re-engaged the drive and went to the zero-position. No "rattling" then. The RA axis turned just right, but the DEC was a bit off - probably due to my free movement check. I didn't dare to continue.
I found this video clip where the sound is similar.
Next evening I tried again.
As long as the temperature was around +10° (50°F), all was fine, but later, when the temperature dropped to +2°C (35°F), the problem returned.
I contacted iOptron, and they told me to loosen the gear mesh a bit - the manual says max 1/4 turns total. I turned that much and expected to feel a little free play, but there was none. I tried to turn it 1/4 turns more (1/2 turn total), and still no free play.
Last night I tried again if the adjustments helped the problem, but no. It was -5°C (23°F) and now both DEC and RA axes started acting up that way.
Going to the zero position (even if now somewhat off) went fine without any noises, but from zero to Spica, which was at az 222° 18' alt +10°03' at the time, failed. Both axes stalled and made that noise.
The mount specs say:
Payload: 52kg (115 lbs), exclude counterweight
Operation temperature: -10°C ~ +40°C
My gear on top of the mount weight less than 16 kg.
- Juha
Senior Embedded SW Designer
Telescope: OrionOptics XV12, Mount: CEM120, Tri-pier 360 and alternative dobson mount.
Grab 'n go: Omegon AC 102/660 on AZ-3 mount
Eyepieces: 26 mm Omegon SWAN 70°, 15 mm TV Plössl, 12.5 mm Baader Morpheus, 10 mm TV Delos, 6 mm Baader Classic Ortho, 5 mm TV DeLite, 4 mm and 3 mm TV Radians
Cameras: ZWO ASI 294MM Pro, Omegon veLOX 178C
OAG: TS-Optics TSOAG09, ZWO EFW 7 x 36 mm, ZWO filter sets: LRGB and Ha/OIII/SII
Explore Scientific HR 2" coma corrector, Meade x3 1.25" Barlow, TV PowerMate 4x 2"
Some filters (#80A, ND-96, ND-09, Astronomik UHC)
Laptop: Acer Enduro Urban N3 semi-rugged, Windows 11
LAT 61° 28' 10.9" N, Bortle 5
I don't suffer from insanity. I'm enjoying every minute of it.
I sent an e-mail to iOptron support early this morning. I told them more about what I have tried, and what the outcomes have been. A moment ago I received an e-mail from them. They suggested to check the bearing tightnesses, and sent the instructions how to do that.
Within the same day even if it's a weekend!
Now THAT's what I call customer support!
- Juha
Senior Embedded SW Designer
Telescope: OrionOptics XV12, Mount: CEM120, Tri-pier 360 and alternative dobson mount.
Grab 'n go: Omegon AC 102/660 on AZ-3 mount
Eyepieces: 26 mm Omegon SWAN 70°, 15 mm TV Plössl, 12.5 mm Baader Morpheus, 10 mm TV Delos, 6 mm Baader Classic Ortho, 5 mm TV DeLite, 4 mm and 3 mm TV Radians
Cameras: ZWO ASI 294MM Pro, Omegon veLOX 178C
OAG: TS-Optics TSOAG09, ZWO EFW 7 x 36 mm, ZWO filter sets: LRGB and Ha/OIII/SII
Explore Scientific HR 2" coma corrector, Meade x3 1.25" Barlow, TV PowerMate 4x 2"
Some filters (#80A, ND-96, ND-09, Astronomik UHC)
Laptop: Acer Enduro Urban N3 semi-rugged, Windows 11
LAT 61° 28' 10.9" N, Bortle 5
I don't suffer from insanity. I'm enjoying every minute of it.
Although I have been following your frustrated efforts to get your gear working properly, I am afraid this issue is way out of my area of expertise, so I can't offer any helpful advice.
Thanks for supportive thoughts, Vanessa.
The mount is designed and manufactured by human beings, and most of them are known to work. I know I'll get it to work eventually - whenever that is.
- Juha
Senior Embedded SW Designer
Telescope: OrionOptics XV12, Mount: CEM120, Tri-pier 360 and alternative dobson mount.
Grab 'n go: Omegon AC 102/660 on AZ-3 mount
Eyepieces: 26 mm Omegon SWAN 70°, 15 mm TV Plössl, 12.5 mm Baader Morpheus, 10 mm TV Delos, 6 mm Baader Classic Ortho, 5 mm TV DeLite, 4 mm and 3 mm TV Radians
Cameras: ZWO ASI 294MM Pro, Omegon veLOX 178C
OAG: TS-Optics TSOAG09, ZWO EFW 7 x 36 mm, ZWO filter sets: LRGB and Ha/OIII/SII
Explore Scientific HR 2" coma corrector, Meade x3 1.25" Barlow, TV PowerMate 4x 2"
Some filters (#80A, ND-96, ND-09, Astronomik UHC)
Laptop: Acer Enduro Urban N3 semi-rugged, Windows 11
LAT 61° 28' 10.9" N, Bortle 5
I don't suffer from insanity. I'm enjoying every minute of it.
If it is "New" I'd be a lot less than Happy! Sorry I don't own that mount but suspect something jarred it in shipping. Were the clutches engaged or dis-engaged when you opened the shipping box?
OhNo wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 3:58 pm
If it is "New" I'd be a lot less than Happy! Sorry I don't own that mount but suspect something jarred it in shipping. Were the clutches engaged or dis-engaged when you opened the shipping box?
Gears disengaged, axle locks on, just like it says in the manual.
ONLY set the Gear Switch at locking position to engage the worm/ring gear during goto, slew or
tracking.
ALWAYS lock the Axle Locking Knob during transferring and installing.
DO NOT lock both Gear Switch and Axle Locking Knob at the same time.
And it's kind of new. I got it before Christmas, but the Tri-pier 360 arrived Mar 22th. Then there was some bad weather, so I didn't get to test things until Apr 19th.
- Juha
Senior Embedded SW Designer
Telescope: OrionOptics XV12, Mount: CEM120, Tri-pier 360 and alternative dobson mount.
Grab 'n go: Omegon AC 102/660 on AZ-3 mount
Eyepieces: 26 mm Omegon SWAN 70°, 15 mm TV Plössl, 12.5 mm Baader Morpheus, 10 mm TV Delos, 6 mm Baader Classic Ortho, 5 mm TV DeLite, 4 mm and 3 mm TV Radians
Cameras: ZWO ASI 294MM Pro, Omegon veLOX 178C
OAG: TS-Optics TSOAG09, ZWO EFW 7 x 36 mm, ZWO filter sets: LRGB and Ha/OIII/SII
Explore Scientific HR 2" coma corrector, Meade x3 1.25" Barlow, TV PowerMate 4x 2"
Some filters (#80A, ND-96, ND-09, Astronomik UHC)
Laptop: Acer Enduro Urban N3 semi-rugged, Windows 11
LAT 61° 28' 10.9" N, Bortle 5
I don't suffer from insanity. I'm enjoying every minute of it.
I have messed around with the G11S mesh gear a lot. I learned a lot from removing the worm gear housing, disconnecting the motors and manually running the worm. That way you can feel when it gets stuck at a high point in the ring gear. I also learned how even a slight imbalance in the direction of motion can make the whole mount vibrate. This can be solved by careful balancing then counterweighting.
For the Losmandies it is also known that a temperature change can tighten up the gear to the point where it binds up, by thermal contraction. Since you are in Finland and are outside in cold temperatures, maybe that could be the cause. Loosen the gear until you feel some backlash and leave it like that. Maybe the cold shrinks everything down so it becomes tight again and works well.
... Henk. Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
SkyHiker wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 6:10 pm
I have messed around with the G11S mesh gear a lot. I learned a lot from removing the worm gear housing, disconnecting the motors and manually running the worm. That way you can feel when it gets stuck at a high point in the ring gear. I also learned how even a slight imbalance in the direction of motion can make the whole mount vibrate. This can be solved by careful balancing then counterweighting.
For the Losmandies it is also known that a temperature change can tighten up the gear to the point where it binds up, by thermal contraction. Since you are in Finland and are outside in cold temperatures, maybe that could be the cause. Loosen the gear until you feel some backlash and leave it like that. Maybe the cold shrinks everything down so it becomes tight again and works well.
I tried loosening the gear mesh. The document said, no more than 1/4 turns total. I turned a bit, then upto 1/4 turns, and finally 1/4 turns more (1/2 turns total). No slack, and it didn't help. I know the slack should be too small to see, but it should be felt, but that didn't happen.
The tech support at iOptron suspected (due to the temperature sensitivity) that the problem might be too tight axle end bearings, and I got instruction sheet, with pictures, how to change the worm gears. One part of putting the gears back, is tightening the axle end bearings. I'll check when I have time. At the end of weekend it's a bit too late in a house with animals (a cat and a dog).
Also, after May 5th there will be no astro dark anymore. Nautical dark is as dark as it gets.
- Juha
Senior Embedded SW Designer
Telescope: OrionOptics XV12, Mount: CEM120, Tri-pier 360 and alternative dobson mount.
Grab 'n go: Omegon AC 102/660 on AZ-3 mount
Eyepieces: 26 mm Omegon SWAN 70°, 15 mm TV Plössl, 12.5 mm Baader Morpheus, 10 mm TV Delos, 6 mm Baader Classic Ortho, 5 mm TV DeLite, 4 mm and 3 mm TV Radians
Cameras: ZWO ASI 294MM Pro, Omegon veLOX 178C
OAG: TS-Optics TSOAG09, ZWO EFW 7 x 36 mm, ZWO filter sets: LRGB and Ha/OIII/SII
Explore Scientific HR 2" coma corrector, Meade x3 1.25" Barlow, TV PowerMate 4x 2"
Some filters (#80A, ND-96, ND-09, Astronomik UHC)
Laptop: Acer Enduro Urban N3 semi-rugged, Windows 11
LAT 61° 28' 10.9" N, Bortle 5
I don't suffer from insanity. I'm enjoying every minute of it.
I like your attitude, I'm curios about iOptron Mounts because I just bought a CEM120 too.
Please post again as you work through iOptron problem.
Yes, I agree with your assessment of iOptron support staff. The wiring harness for the iPolar
camera came apart and I fixed it and later I found their answer to me about the wiring
harness in the Spam folder. Well, I contacted them and gave them my address and
the particulars on the mount. A couple days later I had a new wiring harness for iPolar camera.
I liked them because we got on a first name bases. They seem genuine and help is just and call
or email away. Thanks iOptron.
Clear Skies
kip
Meade OTA f/8 12” on a CEM120 iOptron Mount,
G10 One Shot CMOS Color Camera, QHY 2” Filter Wheel, QHY OAG, SVBony SV305 guide camera
Canon T3i 60D Prime Focus and Eyepiece Projection,
ASCOM 6.5 SP1, Windows 10 Professional
LX850 Mount, ETX125, LX200 f/10 8” GPS, Meade 6” f/4 Newton Reflector on an Equatorial Mount
I did adjust the bearings some time ago, and re-greased the worm gears. I washed the old grease off using brake disc cleaner (it's actually quite gentle to different materials - even plastics) and re-greased with white lithium grease.
iOptron told me not to mix greases, and confirmed that white lithium grease is good.
I still haven't got a good chance to test the results of my adjustments.
- Juha
Senior Embedded SW Designer
Telescope: OrionOptics XV12, Mount: CEM120, Tri-pier 360 and alternative dobson mount.
Grab 'n go: Omegon AC 102/660 on AZ-3 mount
Eyepieces: 26 mm Omegon SWAN 70°, 15 mm TV Plössl, 12.5 mm Baader Morpheus, 10 mm TV Delos, 6 mm Baader Classic Ortho, 5 mm TV DeLite, 4 mm and 3 mm TV Radians
Cameras: ZWO ASI 294MM Pro, Omegon veLOX 178C
OAG: TS-Optics TSOAG09, ZWO EFW 7 x 36 mm, ZWO filter sets: LRGB and Ha/OIII/SII
Explore Scientific HR 2" coma corrector, Meade x3 1.25" Barlow, TV PowerMate 4x 2"
Some filters (#80A, ND-96, ND-09, Astronomik UHC)
Laptop: Acer Enduro Urban N3 semi-rugged, Windows 11
LAT 61° 28' 10.9" N, Bortle 5
I don't suffer from insanity. I'm enjoying every minute of it.
That sound is the sound of stepper motors missing a step. I never heard the sound of the worm gear stepping over the teeth but I doubt that it is that, it would be very hard to achieve that. So maybe that is where you make a mistake into thinking that the gear is too loose while in reality it is too tight.
You have mentioned elsewhere that the gear is either too loose or too tight and you can't find anything in between. It could well be that it is too tight everywhere and that imperfect roundness of the cog wheel causes the steppers to bind up.
To verify what this sound means take off any worm covers and run it without them, then slew and hold the counterweight with your hand to stop it and see what happens. Skipping steps won't hurt the steppers. So if the outcome is that it is indeed the steppers skipping steps, loosen the gears until it stops. If it is indeed the worm skipping teeth then your gears are way too loose and you tighten them. But I strongly doubt that that is the case, I think you have been running it too tight all the time. Don't worry about the 1/4 turn limit, you will know when its too loose by wiggling the counterweight pole.
... Henk. Telescopes: GSO 12" Astrograph, "Comet Hunter" MN152, ES ED127CF, ES ED80, WO Redcat51, Z12, AT6RC, Celestron Skymaster 20x80, Mounts and tripod: Losmandy G11S with OnStep, AVX, Tiltall, Cameras: ASI2600MC, ASI2600MM, ASI120 mini, Fuji X-a1, Canon XSi, T6, ELPH 100HS, DIY: OnStep controller, Pi4b/power rig, Afocal adapter, Foldable Dob base, Az/Alt Dob setting circles, Accessories: ZWO 36 mm filter wheel, TV Paracorr 2, Baader MPCC Mk III, ES FF, SSAG, QHY OAG-M, EAF electronic focuser, Plossls, Barlows, Telrad, Laser collimators (Seben LK1, Z12, Howie Glatter), Cheshire, 2 Orion RACIs 8x50, Software: KStars-Ekos, DSS, PHD2, Nebulosity, Photo Gallery, Gimp, CHDK, Computers:Pi4b, 2x running KStars/Ekos, Toshiba Satellite 17", Website:Henk's astro images
SkyHiker wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:36 pm
That sound is the sound of stepper motors missing a step. I never heard the sound of the worm gear stepping over the teeth but I doubt that it is that, it would be very hard to achieve that. So maybe that is where you make a mistake into thinking that the gear is too loose while in reality it is too tight.
You have mentioned elsewhere that the gear is either too loose or too tight and you can't find anything in between. It could well be that it is too tight everywhere and that imperfect roundness of the cog wheel causes the steppers to bind up.
To verify what this sound means take off any worm covers and run it without them, then slew and hold the counterweight with your hand to stop it and see what happens. Skipping steps won't hurt the steppers. So if the outcome is that it is indeed the steppers skipping steps, loosen the gears until it stops. If it is indeed the worm skipping teeth then your gears are way too loose and you tighten them. But I strongly doubt that that is the case, I think you have been running it too tight all the time. Don't worry about the 1/4 turn limit, you will know when its too loose by wiggling the counterweight pole.
I am and have been pretty sure it's too tight. That too loose was about new round of adjustments. I was planning to make it as loose as possible without getting it "too loose". Then start tightening and testing from there. I have heard the sound when it jumps over teeth, not by steppers, but by hand (during adjustments). The sound is low frequency "metallic" rattle.
- Juha
Senior Embedded SW Designer
Telescope: OrionOptics XV12, Mount: CEM120, Tri-pier 360 and alternative dobson mount.
Grab 'n go: Omegon AC 102/660 on AZ-3 mount
Eyepieces: 26 mm Omegon SWAN 70°, 15 mm TV Plössl, 12.5 mm Baader Morpheus, 10 mm TV Delos, 6 mm Baader Classic Ortho, 5 mm TV DeLite, 4 mm and 3 mm TV Radians
Cameras: ZWO ASI 294MM Pro, Omegon veLOX 178C
OAG: TS-Optics TSOAG09, ZWO EFW 7 x 36 mm, ZWO filter sets: LRGB and Ha/OIII/SII
Explore Scientific HR 2" coma corrector, Meade x3 1.25" Barlow, TV PowerMate 4x 2"
Some filters (#80A, ND-96, ND-09, Astronomik UHC)
Laptop: Acer Enduro Urban N3 semi-rugged, Windows 11
LAT 61° 28' 10.9" N, Bortle 5
I don't suffer from insanity. I'm enjoying every minute of it.
Henk was right. I just tried that already, and continue doing so.
What takes so long is that there are so few rainless days and so far apart. The adjusting and testing, even if not such a big job, takes time, because I have to do it in small pieces.
No worries, Vanessa, I'll get there... eventually...
- Juha
Senior Embedded SW Designer
Telescope: OrionOptics XV12, Mount: CEM120, Tri-pier 360 and alternative dobson mount.
Grab 'n go: Omegon AC 102/660 on AZ-3 mount
Eyepieces: 26 mm Omegon SWAN 70°, 15 mm TV Plössl, 12.5 mm Baader Morpheus, 10 mm TV Delos, 6 mm Baader Classic Ortho, 5 mm TV DeLite, 4 mm and 3 mm TV Radians
Cameras: ZWO ASI 294MM Pro, Omegon veLOX 178C
OAG: TS-Optics TSOAG09, ZWO EFW 7 x 36 mm, ZWO filter sets: LRGB and Ha/OIII/SII
Explore Scientific HR 2" coma corrector, Meade x3 1.25" Barlow, TV PowerMate 4x 2"
Some filters (#80A, ND-96, ND-09, Astronomik UHC)
Laptop: Acer Enduro Urban N3 semi-rugged, Windows 11
LAT 61° 28' 10.9" N, Bortle 5
I don't suffer from insanity. I'm enjoying every minute of it.